Wyldman
Active Member
Safety & Education Chairman
IXOYE
Posts: 643
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Post by Wyldman on Apr 24, 2010 21:34:48 GMT -8
Please offer your opinion on "What you would build for a Great wheeling rig". I'm going to build a new wheeling project starting about Nov, 2010. I would like some input on what kind of vehicle, motor, transmission, transfer case, axles and suspension you would use. This info will help me decide on what I'm going to build. Please, remember to use your imagination. Be specific about your info. I've never personally built a rig from the ground up. This should be quite the adventure. Here are the only perimeters: Keep it under $14,000 It has to be street legal No full size vehicles... Keep it to 76" wide and about 104" long Thanks for your input. I look forward to hearing some great ideas. Wyldman (aka Douglas)
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Post by fivendime on Apr 25, 2010 4:54:09 GMT -8
My opinion is based on one thing......you know what it is Cherokee, and its not because I own one. Other then that I like your Willys Commando idea we were pondering at the Puallup swapmeet. Its way to early for me to be much more creative, so I will stew that idea and see what I think is cool!
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tonka
Ok to Drive
My Heep
Posts: 256
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Post by tonka on Apr 25, 2010 20:44:26 GMT -8
1970 Jeepster 350tbi chevy nv4500 atlas 4speed d60s w 4.88s and arb lockers oh ya thats a wheeler
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TORX
Ok to Drive
Posts: 294
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Post by TORX on Apr 26, 2010 11:53:34 GMT -8
Here are the only perimeters: Keep it under $14,000 It has to be street legal No full size vehicles... Keep it to 76" wide and about 104" long Thanks for your input. I look forward to hearing some great ideas. Wyldman (aka Douglas) Given these restrictions, I would build something similar to this... Late 80's or early 90's Range Rover. You could probably pick one up between 3-4K. If the stock drive train is in good shape I would run it. If not I would consider a 5.3L and a 4L60E swap (a 4cyl diesel swap would be cool too). Maybe go with an aftermarket transfer case right off the bat for a little more gearing (Stak 3spd, Atlas). The axles aren't the strongest from the factory, so I would throw a pair of D44's under it. Go with 5.13's, ARB's, and alloy shafts front and rear. Maybe Toy axles would be another option? I haven't looked into how much aftermarket support the RR market has, but I wouldn't count on much. So a custom three link front, and four link rear would be added. Either keep it coil sprung with good shocks, or pony up the extra cash / fab work for a set of coil overs or air shocks. Since it needs to be street able I would keep the tires around 35"-36" (possibly 37's). Those would work well with the axles, and be plenty capable for PNW trails. For lots of street time a radial MT would work (KM2, MTR, Pitbull Rocker), or for minimal street time a bias Irok or BFG Krawler would be my choice. Steel rims would work for a radial, but if you went with the later two I would look at a set of bead locks. Armor it up with full skids, and maybe a "hybrid" inner/exo cage later on. I would think it would be a pretty capable vehicle, that could be daily driven if you wanted. Plus how many Range Rovers do you see out on the trail?
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Post by fivendime on Apr 26, 2010 15:27:14 GMT -8
Datsun 521 custom 4x4 since they never made a 4x4 model One of my favorite is the Nissan Patrol. I went wheeling with this guy at TSF and it Rocked in stock form. Got hung up due to clearance issues.
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Wyldman
Active Member
Safety & Education Chairman
IXOYE
Posts: 643
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Post by Wyldman on Apr 26, 2010 15:37:28 GMT -8
Thanks for the ideas. Keep them coming, they really help!
Update: I know I'm going to want a manual transmission in it. I'm also thinking of running at least 38" to 40" tires.
Wyldman
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Post by fivendime on Apr 28, 2010 13:42:17 GMT -8
Comanche Pickup! You can darn near bolt in all the major stuff from your wrangler into this thing....such as your atlas, your front end, and rear end if you link it and do coils, arb compressor, CB, any motor parts swap over. These little trucks can be had cheap...like this one on CL right now. Not running but hey its freekin cheap and a good start! Its also something unique on the trails, parts can be had cheap, and its not to big a deal if you dent it up for this price seeing how you can buy spare body parts for it easily. It also has a regular frame as well. portland.craigslist.org/wsc/cto/1707441737.htmlalso check this link out... cngarage.com/1987comanche/index.htm
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TORX
Ok to Drive
Posts: 294
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Post by TORX on Apr 28, 2010 20:23:53 GMT -8
Thanks for the ideas. Keep them coming, they really help! Update: I know I'm going to want a manual transmission in it. I'm also thinking of running at least 38" to 40" tires. Wyldman With those size tires it's going to be tough to keep it street legal. Mudflaps will be easy, but fender flares will be a challenge. Another option... Granted that has a tube frame, but it's sitting on 40's. I would look at putting a 5.0L, NP435, and an Atlas in. Maybe a D60 front, and a built 9" in the rear. Another option for axles could be going with an aftermarket housing straight from the start since oftentimes you end up upgrading the knuckles, and rebuilding the internals anyway. Plus, you would probably end up narrowing the axles to keep it street legal anyways. So many options... ;D
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Post by czjeeper on May 6, 2010 8:33:59 GMT -8
Have you consider an IH Scout?
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Post by toyrocs on May 6, 2010 10:20:42 GMT -8
I'm a Toyota guy soo here goes!: 1) Get a 1986 Jeep Cherokee . This will be a 25 year old rig with no smog testing requirements ( when your rig is on the road in 2011). 2) Cherokee's are cheap/ available & will meet your size/street legal requirements. Consider 2 door model as it's easier to cut/fit the wheel wells for larger tires (without the rear doors). 3) Spend most of your budget on axles/suspension/ gear boxes/ winch/ body protection. 4) Don't bother with small axles-- just go DANA 60 front (narrowed) 14 Bolt rear ( may require to be narrowed). The 14 bolt can be easily shaved 7/8th inch off the bottom to increase clearance with no problems. Use ARB lockers in both axles. Spend the money here. If you buy a lesser locker you won't be happy with the on-steet manners & you will kick yourself for wasting money on a cheaper/ weaker locker! Spend the money here!!! The front axle is usually the weakest link in any 4x4, so build it right the first time! Use 35 spline outer stub shafts with Bobby Longfield U joints. Just lube the joints often if used on the street. Big strong axles will be WAY cheaper in the long run, with less broken parts/ frustration. If you sell the truck the axles will be worth more than the truck!, These axles by themselves are easy to sell! 5) Leave the 6 cylinder engine close to stock. Cheaper/ more reliable + easy to upgrade latter when time/ money permit. 6) Use leaf springs on all four corners. Cheaper/ easy to engineer & if done right can flex great. Leaf springs are very under rated in today's hi-tech world . Hi - tech suspensions are nice/ necessary in competition rigs-- but overkill for a daily driver ! 7) Consider an automatic transmission, as the total gear reduction required is about half of that for a manual tranny. 8) Cut / flare fenders with tubes & add rubberized metal sheet ( conveyor belt material) for splash guards/ flares/ mud flaps. 9) Run 35"-38" tires ---Largest if you can fit, without exceeding bumper height legal limits! Great compromise for on/ off-road use. 10 No fancy paint jobs-- leave it dented/ dull (= cheap). 11) Beef up the unibody with "sub frames" front & rear to handle the extra load of off-road & larger tires. 12) Don't do the extra lights / snorkel/ loud mufflers/ expensive aluminum wheel things--- you don't need them + don't waste your money for something of little use. 13) Keep the rig as low as possible. This means HUGE cut outs in the fender wells. Use very little suspension lift. This will provide a safer rig & meet bumper height target. 14) Use a 231j/241c doubler/transfer-case ( 2.72/2.72) behind the stock engine/ tranny. This will provide a cheap & easy way to get the proper crawl ratios. BTW ,I have the this exact combination siting on the floor of my garage for sale. 15) Also consider buying an already built up rig (that has a lot of stuff on it already)! Their loss your gain! I commend you for asking these questions! I wish I had asked these questions before I built my rig! Would have saved A LOT of time & money. I could go on but I think you get the IDEA. Cheers. Toyrocs
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Post by iceman on May 6, 2010 20:34:00 GMT -8
I agree on the Cherokee. This is a great rig. You could use the Two door because you wouldn't use the four door that often, and tycros makes a good point on the fender cut outs. There is allot of room for all your gear and cargo in the back. I don't agree on the suspension. If you spend $1800 you can get a great Long Arm suspension that will do everything your TJ does know. This also eliminates all the week spots in the factory suspension that are prone to ripping and tearing. If you get a 6.5in lift with some nice trimming you should be able to fit 37in with no probs. If you want bigger get an 8" and you should be able to clear 40's. That's pretty tall for a cherokee . I sure you will be happy with what ever you build. Just keep in mind exotic is more expensive. p.s: Tycros pm me with the price on your doubler I have been wanting on for a while know.
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Wyldman
Active Member
Safety & Education Chairman
IXOYE
Posts: 643
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Post by Wyldman on May 6, 2010 21:11:23 GMT -8
Thanks again everyone for the suggestions. You don't realize what any education this is. I'm hoping that other will benefit from it as well. I'm would consider something completely out of the box... maybe totally unusual.
Let's hear the ideas.
Wyldman
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Post by toyrocs on May 7, 2010 5:48:24 GMT -8
I agree on the Cherokee. This is a great rig. You could use the Two door because you wouldn't use the four door that often, and tycros makes a good point on the fender cut outs. There is allot of room for all your gear and cargo in the back. I don't agree on the suspension. If you spend $1800 you can get a great Long Arm suspension that will do everything your TJ does know. This also eliminates all the week spots in the factory suspension that are prone to ripping and tearing. If you get a 6.5in lift with some nice trimming you should be able to fit 37in with no probs. If you want bigger get an 8" and you should be able to clear 40's. That's pretty tall for a cherokee . I sure you will be happy with what ever you build. Just keep in mind exotic is more expensive. p.s: Tycros pm me with the price on your doubler I have been wanting on for a while know. Iceman, yes your correct ! The long arm 4 link front & rear is better ! It also helps the approach/ departure angles ( no leaf spring overhang in front of & below of the bumpers). I was concerned about the cost. My guess was the long arm kit cost of about $3,500 & going over the Budget limit. If it was my rig it would have the long arms! Ill try to send some details (PM) about the doubler costs. Here is some more details about the setup: 231 jeep doubler (23 spline "late model cherokee" input, with HD 6 pinion planetary upgrade) to a HD 241 Chevy transfer case. This transfer-case has the extreme short shaft output- also with a jeep electronic speedo sender on the output shaft. The doubler kit also has the infinite adjustable clockable (ever 6 degrees adjustment?) ring for the transfer-case. Currently has 1310 CV output yokes ( front & rear) on tranfer case ? I think I also have the stock chevy (1330?) cv yokes . Toyrocs
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Post by oltmann on May 7, 2010 9:40:09 GMT -8
I'll wade in and disagree on the cherokee recommendation.
If you want to go to > 35" tires and keep it street legal I don't think the XJ is a good option. There is a lot of trimming that can be done to help fit ~35-36" tire. To put on 40s and stay as low as I would like you will be either stretching the wheelbase a lot, or trying to trim away sheetmetal that is part of the structure of the chassis.
Also, with lots of unsprung weight and big tires(one ton axles and 40s), most XJs run hard eventually fall apart(or get completely tubed out/not street legal). You end up spending a lot of time on a chassis getting it setup, I would hate to see all that work have an expiration date!
How much fabrication do you want to do vs. how much 'assembly'. Will everything need to be a 'kit' product for the specific vehicle? Also, how many seats do you need?
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Post by toyrocs on May 10, 2010 8:52:00 GMT -8
Ok here is another idea:
1) 1985 Toyota extended cab Pickup. Fuel injected 4 cylinder/ solid axles front & rear.( no smog tests req.). 2)Remove all Leaf springs. 3)Install long arm 3 or 4 link control arms front & rear, from a long arm TJ kit (?) or a custom built up arms/ mounts(preferred). 4)Install 4ea air-shocks ( Fox?) to support truck & dampen suspension. 5) Install small diameter airbags( Firestone) half-way up lower control arm too raise truck higher when off-road( optional). Use simple on the fly driver controlled air fill valves to inflate / deflate. 6) Install two small (2,000 lb ?) winches front & rear. Attach cables to center of each respective axle housing. Lower vehicle with winch .Suck the truck down with the winches before the LEO approaches truck with tape measure & ticket book in hand!!! 7) Build up stock axles per normal hardcore trends.Gear Ratio 5.29?.
Front: High pinion 3rd member. 30 cromo shafts/ Bobbylong joints/ ARB/high steer arms- high crossover/ hydro assist steering.
Rear: cromo shafts/ARB/ V6 rear ( low pinion third member).
8) Stock 5 spd tranny. 9a) 2.23 23 spline toyota forward reduction box ( marlin crawler). 9b) 4.0 reduction ( not 4.7 or 5.0) Marlin crawler transfercase. Also use stronger rear output shaft on aft transfer case. 9c) Custom transfer case mount to "tuck" up as high as possible. 10) Add body protection/ winch/ bumpers/ sliders/cage/ exocage of your choice. Keep lower parts of bumpers as low as possible & as close to the axles as you can ( to meet bumper height requirements & improve departure angles). 11) Install Engine driven air-pump (York). 12) Install double bead wheels. DO NOT repeat DO NOT install single bead-lock wheels. With the Doubles you can run super low pressures off road & don't even need to carry a spare tire! The extra weight & fitting the 40" tire in back of truck is problematic. Just carry a very good tire patch kit & air source. 13) Install 38" maybe 40" tall tires. Try to keep the tire width narrow to meet your max vehicle width target. 14) Bob the bed about 12" to increase rear departure angle. 15) Install the rear long travel (Fox?) air-shocks up thru the bed. 16) Install the front long travel (FOX?) air-shocks up thru the front inner fenders. 17) Use limit straps on all four corners. 18) Use a Toyota IFS PU steering box.
This build truck will be slow on the street. With the stock 22re engine-- even if you build the 22re ( hot cam- high compression- cylinder overbore-header) it will still be a underpowered dog . Hot rodded engines don't work well when rock crawling! This a small engine ya know!-- How about a mild boost in power & still be light weight & no engine/ transmission adapters required??? Use a Toyota (22re(t)) turbo four banger-- as long as you don't do deep water/ mud. You don't want to shock cool the exhaust manifold/ turbo. Also run a VERY good airfilter/ tight induction system to keep debris out of turbo.
The 22re(t) will give you more power for the street & be ok for rock crawling as you don't need much power for most trails at lower trail rpms.
Expect to occasionally break axle shafts/ longfield joints/ ring & pinions when using a very tall tire like you plan to use. The built Toyota axles are strong but not indestructible!
I was trying to NOT use a TOYOTA for this Build up idea, but there is a reason why these are so popular off-road. THEY WORK, are tough & have a lot of aftermarket support.
Toyrocs
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