Wyldman
Active Member
Safety & Education Chairman
IXOYE
Posts: 643
|
Post by Wyldman on Nov 29, 2009 13:21:52 GMT -8
On Saturday Nov 28th a small group of us encountered a Gifford Pinchot National Forest Law Enforcement Officer. The officer stated that the vehicle being driven on "FR" roads have to be completely street legal. He proceeded to write tickets to the group for various violations which included...
The bumper on your rig HAS to extend the width from center of tire to center of tire AND be 4.5" tall AND be less than 28" off the ground.
You must have mud flaps.
On a Flat Bed Toyota (which the owner drives as a "Daily Driver" and has never got a ticket for) the wheels have to have fenders of some sort and mud flaps which he did and it wasn't acceptable.
Flat fenders on the front of you rig requires a fender flair that covers the tire.
A front license plate (which is a given)
There were a number of other things he said he could write tickets for but chose not to. I'm going to research the restrictions and post a link to this section when I find it.
Just know... They think we are up there to tare EVERYTHING up and they have a lot of time on their hands. So be prepared accordingly.
|
|
fry
Ok to Drive
Posts: 114
|
Post by fry on Nov 29, 2009 13:35:01 GMT -8
very interesting.
|
|
tonka
Ok to Drive
My Heep
Posts: 256
|
Post by tonka on Nov 29, 2009 13:45:50 GMT -8
I Just want to add he looked at every rig and said NONE! were street legal . All the rigs there drove there on the road. I have had no problems anywhere else. I have been driving it for years like is. Has factory bumper, and axle width . I think he thought we belonged to the trailers he was talking about. He felt we were taring it up up there and that's the real reason tickets were wrote. I thought all were unjust and some more so than others. I hope to do something about this and will fight my ticket . Also believe the officer needs educated a little
|
|
|
Post by windturbine1 on Nov 29, 2009 13:53:16 GMT -8
if memory serves correct he has to show you the rule that is being violated. if the rig is street legal according to the state patrol then he has to show you the specification that is supposedly broken. i had a similar situation in idaho. i went to the state patrol and obtained copies of the lift and safety specifications. i then built my rig within the standard. i had a county and a city officer both try andd give me tickets for being illegal. i showed them the copies i had and told them to show me what was not within spec. i then asked them to show me there law that they were basing there claim on. they couldnt prove that anything was wrong and left me alone. i would be more than happy to go to the state patrol and obtain a copy of the lift and saftey laws for washington and give a set to everyone.
|
|
|
Post by anglebar on Nov 29, 2009 17:50:43 GMT -8
I have had a few encounters with the law up out of Sunset Falls myself. I have been hassled several times for flares, bumper height, mud flaps ect. I never had ANY trouble anywhere else. One time my son and I had picked up several cans along side of road in the ditch, some were beer cans. Along with the complaints of my rig the officer was NOT very understanding about the open containers. "Nobody picks up beer cans up here, they throw em out"
|
|
|
Post by racincowboy on Nov 29, 2009 19:28:16 GMT -8
I have had a few encounters with the law up out of Sunset Falls myself. I have been hassled several times for flares, bumper height, mud flaps ect. I never had ANY trouble anywhere else. One time my son and I had picked up several cans along side of road in the ditch, some were beer cans. Along with the complaints of my rig the officer was NOT very understanding about the open containers. "Nobody picks up beer cans up here, they throw em out" Having been in that situation before and getting a ticket from the forest service LEO. I was north above Prometory and I knew alot of people wheeled up there illlegally years ago when this happened but I was on my dirt bike sitting on the obviously built and maintained road watching some jeeps and a p/u drive down a road that had 4 inch open rock some 12 in deep and 20ft wide. So basically we all got tickets for being on an unimproved road and accused of tearing down the no wheeling signs that look like the white flexible road side markers of which we did not touch nor see them. All I can say is are all your court dates together? We didnt know the people that we were watching and didnt compare dates. I just paid my ticket and sent along a letter of which did no good. My brother who was right next to me and got one as well went to court by himself. Well I have to say I never thought a law enforcement officer would out and out lie under oath on the stand but she did. She has now transfered out of the area. But what I guess is what I am trying to say is when you fight these tickets have statements better yet have your witnesses in person and look over the tickets carefully for correct dates, times, location ect. When he was writing you guys tickets for improper bumper height how could he do it without a measuring device on flat ground. That should be easy to beat. Anyhow good luck with beating all of these and hopefully we can work with Gifford Pinchot LEO's and show them we are not vandals using 4wd's to vandalize the forest. Lance
|
|
|
Post by oltmann on Nov 29, 2009 20:18:15 GMT -8
I'm sorry to hear about this. That is an area I really like to snow wheel, but now it seems that I am no longer welcome. In recent years I have trailered my jeep up there to play in the snow. I park in the day use area and hang a NW Forest Pass in the tow rig. I haven't had any issues, but I also have not come across any LEOs during my travels.
It makes no sense to me that the USFS thinks that enforcing the RCW for vehicles will help with any issue they are currently facing. The only thing 'tore up' I have seen up there is the main road from years of neglect and no maintenance. It is bad enough that a modified vehicle is practically required to navigate it. I know that I hate going through there in my stocker dodge tow rig.
|
|
|
Post by fivendime on Nov 29, 2009 20:42:33 GMT -8
I would like to invite this gentleman to one of our meetings, maybe then he would understand what we are trying to accomplish and that we are on his side. Not a big fan of guilty until proven innocent.
|
|
|
Post by anglebar on Nov 29, 2009 21:02:06 GMT -8
It makes no sense to me that the USFS thinks that enforcing the RCW for vehicles will help with any issue they are currently facing. The only thing 'tore up' I have seen up there is the main road from years of neglect and no maintenance. It is bad enough that a modified vehicle is practically required to navigate it. I know that I hate going through there in my stocker dodge tow rig. To help collect revenue form you and I and everyone else Why is it like this on National Forest Land but not DNR
|
|
|
Post by windturbine1 on Nov 29, 2009 21:52:41 GMT -8
i agree that the forest service should be invited to a meeting. or maybe invite one of the officers to go on a snow run. maybe then they will learn that we all want the same thing.
|
|
tonka
Ok to Drive
My Heep
Posts: 256
|
Post by tonka on Nov 29, 2009 22:04:37 GMT -8
Washington State Bumper Law
Bumpers: A special motor vehicle shall be equipped with a bumper on both the front and rear of the vehicle with the exception of motor vehicles where the original or predominant body configuration, provided by a recognized manufacturer, did not include such bumper or bumpers in the design of the vehicle. For the relevant model year, bumpers must accommodate recognized manufacturer impact absorption systems per applicable Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Bumper Standards or equivalent standards.
Bumpers are optional equipment on vehicles defined as street rods and kit vehicles by the Washington state patrol vehicle inspectors.
Bumpers, unless specifically exempted above, shall be at least 4.5 inches in vertical height, centered on the vehicle's centerline, and extend no less than the width of the respective wheel track distances. Bumpers shall be attached to the vehicle in a manner equivalent to the original manufacturer's installation. Bumpers shall be horizontal load bearing and attach to the vehicle frame to effectively transfer energy when impacted.
The maximum bumper heights will be determined by weight category of gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) measured from a level surface to the highest point on the bottom of the bumper. For vehicles exempted from the bumper requirement for the reasons stated above, a maximum frame elevation measurement shall be made to the bottom of the frame rail. Maximum heights are as follows:
Front
Back
Passenger Vehicles
22 Inches
22 Inches
4,500 lbs. and under GVWR
24 Inches
26 Inches
4,501 lbs. to 7,500 lbs. GVWR
27 Inches
29 Inches
7,501 lbs. to 10,000 lbs. GVWR
28 Inches
30 Inches
Adding an additional bumper will not meet the above requirements.
Washington State Fender Laws:
All wheels of a special motor vehicle shall be equipped with fenders designed to cover the entire tire tread width that comes in contact with the road surface. Coverage of the tire tread circumference shall be from at least 15° in front and to at least 75° to the rear of the vertical centerline at each wheel measured from the center of the wheel rotation. At no time shall the tire come in contact with the body, fender, chassis, or suspension of the vehicle. Street rods and kit vehicles which are more than forty years old and are owned and operated primarily as a collector's item need not be equipped with fenders when the vehicle is used and driven during fair weather on well-maintained, hard-surfaced roads.
|
|
rizon
Winch Cable Monkey
Posts: 15
|
Post by rizon on Nov 30, 2009 11:29:17 GMT -8
It seemed like he fumbled through a lot of his explanation indicating he did not even know exactly what he was talking about.
We could have made him show us the laws and been a little more difficult but we were trying to be very polite and represent our clubs with class. We were hoping that being nice might make him reconsider........It did not.
If we had been more difficult with him he could have started looking closer and asking for insurance cards etc....
|
|
blaze69
Winch Cable Monkey
Posts: 1
|
Post by blaze69 on Nov 30, 2009 21:22:37 GMT -8
Hello to all our fellow 4x4 friends. We are Mark and Pat and are new to this forum. We were on that snow ride as guests in our '69 Blazer.
First and most important, what a great day out. We met some very nice people and look forward to the next outing.
We were one of the people who got let off with a warning even though the officer claimed that we had several violations. We also researched the rules and regs and found that several of the things he accused us of having wrong are indeed well within the compliance of the law. Even though we have not been cited, we would be happy to attend the court date and testify to the incompetence of this officer. It would be far better if we showed up with more people. For those of you who got a ticket and wish to fight it, try as best you can to coordinate your court dates and time. This way we can help each other. We will continue to study and research the laws so that we can help you through this forum or by a written, notarized statement for court use, and if we are needed as witnesses, we prefer to be well educated witnesses.
Mark had a private conversation with the officer regarding our Blazer and has found several incompetencies and mis-interpretations made by the officer. This could be useful in proving the officer's judgement is not correct.
Feel free to respond and we can communicate about this.
Fellow 4x4ers, Mark & Pat
|
|
flipflop
Ok to Drive
attitude is everything
Posts: 178
|
Post by flipflop on Dec 1, 2009 18:33:49 GMT -8
Rizon & Blaze69 I'll send both of you PM's shortly...
BTW, I had a blast on Saturday and am looking forward to the next snow run, I hope the National forest Service officer didn't scary you away. Also if you need help installing mud flaps, modfying bumpers, ect. I've got some simple tools and time and would be willing to help.
flip.flop
|
|
jeeper78
Winch Cable Monkey
1972 CJ-5
Posts: 39
|
Post by jeeper78 on Dec 1, 2009 22:18:28 GMT -8
Washington State Bumper Law Bumpers, unless specifically exempted above, shall be at least 4.5 inches in vertical height, According to this statement, my stock CJ bumper doesn't pass.
|
|