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Post by pistonschick on Jun 14, 2010 18:31:23 GMT -8
This is the "less than desired" result of a radio broadcast story that aired today that I was interviewed for by Tom Banse. On the upside - who listens to OPB??? I really liked the content and general intent of the story and wanted to participate since Larry Raedel (DNR Police Chief) recommended me to the reporter. In the future, I might have to enforce the "no comment" response for reporters I don' t know. Where he played back my interview - that information is, of course, accurate. But where he would just report on what I said, he seemed to put a funky twist on it and corrupt my intent. Oh well - I tried. news.opb.org/article/policing-outdoor-crime-comfort-youtube/
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Post by pistonschick on Jun 14, 2010 18:53:50 GMT -8
Pimped this from Grumpy's site (thanks Dave) - thought it was appropriate for this particular thread. Be sure to note the Washington State recreation area used as an example...
I think it is always important to take the time to read opinions from the "other side of the forest". While somewhat of a rant - he makes some valid points...
The bold writing is for you "skimmers" who never actually read my posts in their entirety.
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From the Huffington Post:
David Petersen.Outdoorsman and author Posted: June 2, 2010 03:17 PM
Don't Let Reckless Off-roaders Ruin the Summer
It's Memorial Day weekend - the first fling for outdoor summer recreation. If you're like me, you and your family will probably enjoy some form of outdoor activity this weekend, from a backyard BBQ to a backpack venture. Unfortunately, there's a growing chance, especially on western public lands, that irresponsible off-road vehicle (ORV) riders will ruin our weekend. This growing minority of rudely reckless riders terrorize quiet users by spinning donuts in campgrounds, speeding on forest roads and tearing cross-country through the boonies, wherever they want, consequences to others and the land be damned.
Not only do thoughtless ORV cowboys ruin the outdoor experience for other public lands users, they trespass on private property and do serious and lasting damage to fish and wildlife habitat. If that's not bad enough, a growing number of outlaw off-roaders react violently when confronted by law enforcement, other public lands users or property owners.
America is endowed with millions of acres of publicly accessible land suitable for a multitude of uses: hiking, camping, mountain biking, horseback riding, hunting, fishing and backpacking, for a few examples. But darned if I can understand how our last best outdoor places were ever allowed to become play parks for motorized recreation, legal or otherwise. Off-roaders have access to 206.3 million acres of land managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM) - roughly equal to the size of California, Colorado and New York combined. Add that to the tens of thousands of miles of roads and trails the U.S Forest Service has opened to motor vehicles and the uncounted areas operated by states, municipalities and private owners. Yet "legitimate" users and their organizations clamor constantly for more and more, while the outlaws among them just don't give a damn about ... much of anything but their own cheap thrills. They blatantly make their own trails, ignore "No Trespassing" signs (as caretaker for a large chunk of private land I know this from hard personal experience) and even cut fences. Look at the Pike/San Isabel National Forest in Colorado. The scars ORVs have already carved into that terrain won't likely heal in my lifetime. In short, ORVs, through over-use as well as abuse, increasingly make it impossible for other users to enjoy the outdoors.
As an active outdoorsman, I can't tell you the number of times in the past decade that I've had my hunt or hike or camping experience ruined - what should have been a quiet, relaxing outdoor experience transmogrified into a screaming nightmare -- by ATV or off-road motorcycle riders going where they know they shouldn't. Most of my former favorite hunting areas are now useless to me and to the animals I hunt, thanks to the minority ORV menace.
The ORV problem has gotten so serious that officials are in some areas are forced to close formally legal ORV riding areas to curtail habitat destruction and user conflict. And for that I applaud them. Officials in North Carolina closed the Upper Tellico ORV area last October after discovering that sediment from motorized trails was reaching the Tellico River. In Arizona, the Sonoran Desert National Monument was closed to ORVs in 2008 to allow the landscape to regenerate. In Washington state, authorities estimate it will take $6 million to restore the Reiter Pit because of ORV damage. Can't ORV riders and the groups that so forcefully represent them see that they are their own worst enemies -- not "liberal extremists" or whoever else they may choose to use as scapegoats? This mouthy minority is not only noisy, it's insatiable. "We want our share, and we want your share too!" seems to be their motto.
So what can we do to make sure that irresponsible ORV riding doesn't ruin this holiday weekend and this and other summers to come? Some states and localities have passed laws that give law enforcement more tools to address the problem. Others are reallocating ORV registration funds from traditionally purely self-promoting uses, primarily trail building and maintenance, to help fund the full range of impacts on the land and other users caused by motorized recreation, specifically law enforcement and repair of damaged habitat. Here in my home state of Colorado, the State Parks Board has the opportunity to support real, meaningful ORV management reform through "sticker funds" reallocation, though the ORV lobby is fighting hard for the insupportable status quo. I hope the Parks Board does what they know is right from every perspective, rather than bending spinelessly to the stingy demands of the state ORV lobby group. How much more public support do they need to enact reform than the relentless input they've been hearing for months from more than 40 Colorado organizations representing sportsmen, property owners, law enforcement and conservation? Hunters and anglers pay for our own law enforcement through license fees. Why should the most damaging and disruptive public lands user group of all be allowed to escape the responsibility of self-policing?
But with so much public and private land being impacted, states and municipalities can only do so much, even when they try. We need Congress to step up and enact meaningful national ORV management guidelines. This means setting "attention getting" minimum penalties for lawless riding and sharply escalating penalties for repeat offenders. It also means visible IDs for ORVs, like what the Coast Guard is doing with maritime vessels. As it stands, with no license plates and hiding behind dark-colored helmet face shields, outlaw riders are anonymous, a fact they take maximum advantage of and fight hard to maintain.
And consider this: If in fact, as the ORV lobby constantly claims, all the countless and constant ORV rider conduct problems America experiences daily all are the doing of "a few bad apples," then why won't legitimate riders and their clubs help us get rid of those bums by supporting such basics as increased law enforcement and visible ID plates, rather than continuing to protect and facilitate the cancer within? As things now stand, the public is left to believe it's not just "a few bad apples," but the whole stinking ORV orchard that's rotten.
I hope we all have safe and enjoyable outdoor experiences this Memorial Day weekend - whether on foot, bike or motorized vehicle. But with the growing number of reckless riders, it's guaranteed that for far too many among us, our holiday weekend will be ruined by ORV abuse and overuse. It sucks.
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Post by pistonschick on Jun 14, 2010 19:09:28 GMT -8
And one more cross-post from Grumpy's site. Thought this story was worth sharing - since we all love Naches.
Now some of you might understand why we don't plan club runs at the "popular" places on 3-day weekends. It's just too much of a circus and we would spend our entire weekend "educating" instead of relaxing and enjoying time with our friends...
Oh yeah - they mention Reiter in this story too!
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Three-day weekend brings out ‘idiots’ June 7, 2010 by Scott Sandsberry
YAKIMA, Wash. — Memorial Day weekend is annually welcomed with poignant regret over lost heroes and loved ones, with relief over the end of cold-and-wet and the onset of warm-and-dry, and with relish over the prospect of a three-day break from day-job drudgery.
For those who manage or maintain trail systems, though — and even for those who recreate on those trails according to rules and trail ethics — Memorial Day weekend isn’t welcome because of, as one four-wheeling enthusiast put it, “that bunch of idiots out there.”
This year’s holiday weekend — which left rutted trails and mudbogged meadows in and around Naches and Cle Elum Ranger District trail systems — was dreaded by public land managers and reputable off-roader clubs alike for three reasons.
The first was the weather — the wettest late spring in recent memory — which left trail systems and nearby meadows soft and muddy.
“We had made the decision a month before that we weren’t going to close the (Naches Ranger District frontcountry) trails because it had been dry,” said Naches District Ranger Irene Davidson. “But then we had rain.”
The second was closures of trail systems in other areas — most notably Reiter Foothills (“the Pit”), a popular off-roading area on state land near Gold Bar in Snohomish County that has been closed since November because of creekbed damage and unauthorized trail use.
That meant a huge influx of visitors who might otherwise have recreated elsewhere, filling the Little Naches, Rimrock and Manastash areas with more trail-riding enthusiasts than ever before.
That meant, even though the majority were still rule-following club members, there were also greater numbers of the ones who simply ignore trail rules and ethics.
“That was the highest number of off-road vehicles I’ve seen in past years,” said Ron Rutherford, a member of a Yakima-area club called the Jeeping Nomads.
“A lot of these folks, they were just independent individuals who left their manners and common sense at home and just let it all out,” Rutherford said. “I’m part of a reputable club and we’re trying to do the right thing and keep the trails in good shape, so we did a little education and asked them to follow the rules.
“But by Saturday some of them were like, ‘Hey, there’s no enforcement, anything goes!’”
Yakima County Sheriff’s Deputy Steve Sutliff, who for much of the time has to be the sole officer patrolling off-road vehicle use over the Chinook and White Pass corridors, called it “normal, run-of-the-mill off-road vehicle activity” that just happened to be a lot of riders in limited space.
“Long Meadow and the Ponderosa really got hammered,” Sutliff said. “The Ponderosa (a camp-and-trails area east of the Little Naches drainage), to me, was a mudhole. There must have been 20 or 30 dirtbikes and quads in there. That area is kind of designed for that, but not when it’s wet like that. It was just a lot of mud.”
In some cases, the trenching of some of the trail systems wasn’t because of people breaking rules. It was just the vast number of people riding around on the trails and dispersed camping areas.
“There was no place for them to go, really, because there was snow up higher and it was rainy, so they just rode the same trails over and over again,” Sutliff said. “The Kaner trail (No. 676) was really mucked up all to hell. All the trails were. It didn’t matter where you went — everything was wet.”
With more people heading to the hills to recreate and fewer public lands in which to do so, this kind of problem isn’t going away, said Mark Mauren, statewide recreation program manager for the Department of Natural Resources.
“The real tragedy is if you look at the history of development of recreation trails, both motorized and non-motorized, you’ll see the majority of investment was done in the ’60s, ’70s and early ’80s,” Mauren said. “Since then — whether you’re talking about state parks, the Department of Natural Resources, the Forest Service or whoever — we as a society really haven’t invested at the same level, and yet our population has doubled.
“We haven’t been able to adapt to that change or even have the staff to manage this influx of people so that we don’t have these impacts that we’re seeing across the state.
“And it’s good people; these are well-intentioned people, but they just have nowhere to recreate, whether motorized or non-motorized. In my mind, that’s really the tragedy.”
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Post by racincowboy on Jun 14, 2010 19:51:40 GMT -8
This is the "less than desired" result of a radio broadcast story that aired today that I was interviewed for by Tom Banse. On the upside - who listens to OPB??? I really liked the content and general intent of the story and wanted to participate since Larry Raedel (DNR Police Chief) recommended me to the reporter. In the future, I might have to enforce the "no comment" response for reporters I don' t know. Where he played back my interview - that information is, of course, accurate. But where he would just report on what I said, he seemed to put a funky twist on it and corrupt my intent. Oh well - I tried. news.opb.org/article/policing-outdoor-crime-comfort-youtube/You are right about the weird twist to the story. In response to David Petersen's article it reminds me that before I write something to that effect that I check my facts twice. I also relish the fact that he can legally hike pretty much anywhere in billions of acres he feels like. Where an OHV enthusiast is imprisoned to a handful of legal area's to ride. Granted there are vandals out there that use a 4x4 as a tool to create havoc and damage. Just like there are Subaru's out there that pollute the air on the way to a hiking trail near you. On any given day there could be more of one then the other. Myself as a legal OHV user I would love to see steep fines handed out to people that destroy and vandalize the woods using a 4x4 as their weapon. That is just my opinion as a legal OHV user imprisoned to a few areas to recreate legally.
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Post by themooses on Jun 15, 2010 8:10:31 GMT -8
This is the "less than desired" result of a radio broadcast story that aired today that I was interviewed for by Tom Banse. On the upside - who listens to OPB??? I really liked the content and general intent of the story and wanted to participate since Larry Raedel (DNR Police Chief) recommended me to the reporter. In the future, I might have to enforce the "no comment" response for reporters I don' t know. Where he played back my interview - that information is, of course, accurate. But where he would just report on what I said, he seemed to put a funky twist on it and corrupt my intent. Oh well - I tried. news.opb.org/article/policing-outdoor-crime-comfort-youtube/You are right about the weird twist to the story. In response to David Petersen's article it reminds me that before I write something to that effect that I check my facts twice. I also relish the fact that he can legally hike pretty much anywhere in billions of acres he feels like. Where an OHV enthusiast is imprisoned to a handful of legal area's to ride. Granted there are vandals out there that use a 4x4 as a tool to create havoc and damage. Just like there are Subaru's out there that pollute the air on the way to a hiking trail near you. On any given day there could be more of one then the other. Myself as a legal OHV user I would love to see steep fines handed out to people that destroy and vandalize the woods using a 4x4 as their weapon. That is just my opinion as a legal OHV user imprisoned to a few areas to recreate legally. Well said, Lance. I'd like to see the ones that constantly, and flagrantly, flaunt the laws be arrested, tried, and have their rigs confiscated (after conviction) to be used in LEGAL wheeling training programs in the schools. Just MHO.
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Post by toyrocs on Jun 15, 2010 8:48:51 GMT -8
[/quote] Well said, Lance. I'd like to see the ones that constantly, and flagrantly, flaunt the laws be arrested, tried, and have their rigs confiscated (after conviction) to be used in LEGAL wheeling training programs in the schools. Just MHO.[/quote]
IMO nothing will stop the illegal activity quicker or better than Vehicle confiscation( after conviction). Personal freedom with the use of their 4x4 is very important to these types of people! Most of the illegal users don't have the resources to easily replace their ride. They will also tell their buddies about the confiscation so this type of legal action will have a " force multiplier" effect.
Law enforcement must be on site in the problem areas at night. These types of illegal activities generally don't happen during the day. LEO must be on-site till about 3am ( three o'clock in the morning). Do this occasionally & the word will get out that this DNR area is subject to strict law enforcement!
We could also discuss how to get additional or redirected funding to help pay for this Law Enforcement. Letters/ calls to county board members? Grass roots community petitions? Grant money from Federally funded law enforcement programs?
Anyone have some more ideas?
BTW: I hate police powers of vehicle confiscation-- it can be easily abused.
Toyrocs
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Post by racincowboy on Jun 15, 2010 11:41:54 GMT -8
Well said Toyrocs.
I am a fan of confiscation after other avenues have been surpassed. If you are doing nothing wrong no one has anything to worry about is my thinking.
Now with the 4x4 stuff I see monetary fines first and foremost. For the repeat and habitual offenders I see confiscation as a real possibility. Now for the first time offender 300 bucks should be plenty. Granted some of the first time offenders didn't know or didn't bother to check if it was legal or not. Everyone makes mistakes whether they intended to or not. We have all been there.
My personal feeling is the people that need the steep fines are the repeat and habitual offenders where no amount of fines will be enough to get them to change their behavior. If they do not have their 4x4 that they were using as a tool of destruction anymore then they wont have a way to tear up the woods. Now could they get another one well of course they could. But it will cost them more time, money and effort to accomplish that. I know word travels fast. It wouldn't take long before the bad actors hear the word and either change their behavior or move onto less populated areas.
Now what to do with confiscated vehicles. Those vehicles should be sold at auction and the money from them used to employ more Leo's. In a perfect world the Leo's would be patrolling the woods 24/7 and 365 a year. Just the visual presence is alot of times enough to deter most individuals.
That is just my meager opinion of how it should be. Is it perfect no. Would it cut down on alot of issues yes I believe so.
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Post by themooses on Jun 16, 2010 8:30:08 GMT -8
Well said Toyrocs. I am a fan of confiscation after other avenues have been surpassed. If you are doing nothing wrong no one has anything to worry about is my thinking. Now with the 4x4 stuff I see monetary fines first and foremost. For the repeat and habitual offenders I see confiscation as a real possibility. Now for the first time offender 300 bucks should be plenty. Granted some of the first time offenders didn't know or didn't bother to check if it was legal or not. Everyone makes mistakes whether they intended to or not. We have all been there. My personal feeling is the people that need the steep fines are the repeat and habitual offenders where no amount of fines will be enough to get them to change their behavior. If they do not have their 4x4 that they were using as a tool of destruction anymore then they wont have a way to tear up the woods. Now could they get another one well of course they could. But it will cost them more time, money and effort to accomplish that. I know word travels fast. It wouldn't take long before the bad actors hear the word and either change their behavior or move onto less populated areas. Now what to do with confiscated vehicles. Those vehicles should be sold at auction and the money from them used to employ more Leo's. In a perfect world the Leo's would be patrolling the woods 24/7 and 365 a year. Just the visual presence is alot of times enough to deter most individuals. That is just my meager opinion of how it should be. Is it perfect no. Would it cut down on alot of issues yes I believe so. Again, Lance; as always; very well said. ;D
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